Veet: Hello. 

Today I'm interviewing Morag Gamble, yay! She's the founder of the Permaculture Education Institute, and on her website, she has this quote:

“Permaculture is more than just an approach to gardening — it's a local solution to global needs.” 

I first came across Morag during the very first COVID lockdown when someone sent me her Facebook Live series — she was doing “lives at five,” five-minute lives every day at 5 p.m. For 55 days. 

She did that, and I couldn't wait each day to watch those videos. I learned so much. In those days, I was living in a rental property and my landlord wouldn't let me garden in the dirt, so after watching Morag and getting so inspired from her “lives at five,” I bought one of her courses and I started gardening in pots. I had an incredible permaculture pot garden. And now, I actually have almost half an acre of permaculture garden here — thanks to Morag!

Veet: And here is Morag! Welcome, welcome, welcome! Welcome Morag! It's such an honour to have you here on my podcast show.

Morag: Oh, thanks for inviting me, Veet. It's really lovely to be here with you.

Veet: I was just going to start… I'm sure some of my listeners know what permaculture is, but some may not. So I just thought I would start by asking you what permaculture is and how it differs from regular gardening.

Morag: Well, permaculture is essentially a way of designing with nature for sustainability, for regeneration. And one of the ways that it's most visibly seen is in the garden. So how do we design the landscapes in which we live, our habitats, so that they're bringing the soil alive, soaking all the moisture in beautifully, with multiple different species of plants that offer us fibre, nutrition, fruits, herbs, flowers, vegetables, indigenous plants, and plants for wildlife?

All of those together in this integrated kind of forage garden. It is also a vegetable garden, but it's kind of a vegetable garden plus — it has all those other dimensions.

So when you're thinking about designing a permaculture garden, you start from where you are. You're looking out from your kitchen or from your back veranda and you think, “Okay, what is it that I need right there in front of me?” You might have some herbs, some teas or some medicines you need, and then the vegetables, and then beyond that is a bit of a food forest sprinkled with habitat plants.

So it's a wonderful forage garden that is habitat for you and habitat for a whole range of other species. So I wouldn't say it's different from a vegetable garden, but rather that a vegetable garden is part of a whole permaculture system.

Veet: Yeah, that’s fabulous. I love how we plant plants to help fertilise and help keep the pests away — so there are fewer things we need to buy for the garden.

Morag: Yeah, yeah. It’s really about creating a circular system. What is it that's coming out of our house that can go into the garden? What in the garden itself can you chop and drop so you're feeding the soil? What can you plant to help reduce water run-off, prevent erosion, and hold your soil together?

So you're not just designing for food for yourself — you're designing with a mindset of supporting the garden as a living system and all the visitors that might come into that garden. It's really about supporting life — lifeing. You know, it's a beautiful thing.

Veet: Yes, I love that. I love how you suggest planting pigeon peas to feed the birds — and it also helps feed me…

Yes! And it feeds the soil! That’s right, with the nitrogen.

Morag: Exactly! And they're short-lived, so after a few years, they might die back. And as a legume, pigeon pea is fixing nitrogen onto little nodules on its roots. When it dies back, it becomes a slow-release natural fertilizer into the soil. Meanwhile, you've harvested some seeds, planted some more, maybe the birds have planted some for you — and there's more coming up. There's this constant cycling; it's really working with nature.

This is what permaculture reminds us: how can we live in a way where we're in flow with nature, instead of trying to stop nature's flow? When we interrupt the flow of nature, we get pest problems, erosion, soil degradation, and no pollinators.

But when we're in the flow of how nature naturally works, everything just starts to buzz and come alive. Gardening and being in the garden helps connect us to nature and bring us back into that flow.

Veet: Yeah, absolutely. That excites me just listening to you talk about that. I’m curious — you now run the Permaculture Education Institute, but how did your journey with permaculture begin?

Morag: Oh, wow. Gosh, there are so many dimensions to it. I grew up in suburban Melbourne. My mum and dad had this quarter acre block where they built their house. They were really aware of sustainable living before it was called permaculture.

Dad designed and built the house to face north to catch the sun, with lots of active ventilation. We composted, minimised waste, and Mum grew lots of native plants to attract birds.

One of my earliest memories was seeing a kookaburra and running inside to show Mum the picture in the bird book. I’ve always been excited about the natural world.

We had fruit trees, an orchard, herbs and salad greens. Then, I remember permaculture being discussed on the ABC radio — my dad tuned in and said, “This makes so much sense — everyone should do this.” That stuck with me.

Later, I studied landscape architecture, thinking it would be about designing with nature. But I was disappointed — it was more about putting a face over landscapes, not real ecological design.

A lecturer once told me that “designing with nature” was passé — and that’s when I knew I needed to go a different way.

At the same time, I was passionate about forests, sustainability, and systems thinking. I began studying how ecosystems work. I realised permaculture was the avenue to combine my values and actions — a framework to live with nature, education, and compassion.

Veet: Oh, that's fantastic! I love the positive note to it.

Morag: Yes! So you can start your own permaculture garden, but you also work at much bigger scales. 

Veet: Would you like to talk about some of the projects you’re doing now with permaculture? 

Morag: The main thing I'm doing is running the Permaculture Education Institute. I realised I could reach more people by teaching the teachers.

I host conversations, screen films, hold events like the International Permaculture Festival of Wild Ideas — and I live what I teach. I've lived in a permaculture eco-village for 25 years, owner-built my house, raised my kids here, and eat from our food forest.

My students are worldwide — from refugee communities to places like London or the Himalayas. Donations from my film club and online events go 100% to support local permaculture programs in those communities.

Everywhere you look, people are doing this work — even though it doesn’t make the news. There’s a global network of kind, proactive people working with nature.

Veet: That is so beautiful. I love that — humankind, kind humans.

Morag: Yes! We are kind humans. Permaculture gives us a shared language and a sense of what's possible.

Veet: Fabulous! So leading on from that — let’s say someone lives in a smaller urban setting. Can they still do permaculture gardening?

Morag: Absolutely! Urban areas are essential for permaculture. If you can compost your scraps, start a worm farm or compost system, grow herbs in pots or raised beds — you’re creating a closed-loop system. Even a fruit tree and its “guild” of garden companions can work in a small space.

Things like edible hedges, shade trees that provide food, rooftop gardens, even sprouts under your sink — are great starts.

Permaculture is not just about food. It’s a decision-making framework. Reduce waste, choose low-footprint items, reuse, trade, consider your community’s food systems. It's about living lightly and regeneratively, no matter where you are.

Veet: So good! Okay, now — a question for my vegan listeners. Someone told me I must have chickens for permaculture. But I’m vegan and I don’t want to use animals that way. How can someone do permaculture without animals?

Morag: Great question! Yes, there’s a growing movement of vegan permaculture. I myself am mostly vegan and have always leaned that way.

While animals can help in systems, we’re not talking about exploiting them. Your garden is full of animals already — soil microbes, worms, birds, insects and frogs. Your job is to create habitat for them. Invite insectivorous birds, frogs, and lizards to eat bugs. Attract pollinators. That’s your ecosystem.

Use plants like comfrey or legumes to add fertility instead of manure. Use cover crops and companion planting. Take care of the life that supports your garden. You don’t need to own animals; you just need to work with the wildlife that naturally coexists in your space.

Veet: That’s fantastic — nurturing an ecosystem instead of controlling one. Thank you! Before we go, would you share a recipe with us?

Morag: Yes! My favourite is pumpkin soup. My dad used to make it — carefully peeling the pumpkin, scooping seeds, composting the bits. But one friend showed me a simpler way — chop it all up, seeds, skin, everything into a pot. Add greens, herbs, turmeric leaves, whatever is fresh in the garden.

The skin and seeds are nutritious. The seeds add protein. Often, we waste parts of food that are perfectly edible. Most food that’s grown is wasted — even in our own homes. So let your garden inspire your soup!

Veet: Amazing! I will so try that! Also, it adds protein — which soup often lacks. A brilliant tip — cooking with the whole plant!

Morag: Yes! People walk past massive pumpkin vines, not realising every part is edible — leaves, shoots, flowers. We need to rethink what’s food.

There are over 30,000 edible plants in the world, but we rely on three! So let’s eat the abundance all around us.

Veet: Thank you so much, Morag. I feel so inspired to get back into the garden.

Morag: You’re very welcome. It was lovely to chat with you.

Veet: Wow! What a fabulous interview with Morag Gamble. You could hear her passion for a kinder world. I love that phrase — “humankind,” as in kind humans. Permaculture is such a kind way of approaching gardening.

If you want to check out Morag’s work, the link is above. She has lots of free resources. I took her Incredible Edible Garden course and really recommend starting with a fruit tree in a pot, with a guild of companion plants to fertilise it.

Or, just grow some herbs on the balcony. We all need herbs for calcium!

I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did. I think I’m going to go make some pumpkin soup with skin and seeds and all!

Until next time, I hope you have a sensational day. Bye!

You… you… Bye… Thank you… you…